Saturday, July 18, 2009

Why don't we call these notorious dissidents what they really are, heretics?

An umbrella group has recently been formed to shelter many of the dissident groups that refuse to obey and seek to change many of the major teachings of the Catholic Church. The American Catholic Council (ACC) is calling for “discussion at every level of the Catholic Church in the United States to consider the state and future of our Church.” The council plans to hold the council on June 10-11, 2011 (Pentecost), in Detroit. [Maybe the Rainbow Sash folks will be in Detroit next year, hope, hope, hope.]

The group’s website describes their aims: “We recall the promise of the Second Vatican Council for a renaissance through a radically inclusive understanding of the role and responsibilities of all the Baptized and an engaged relationship between the Church and the World reflecting the true meaning of the Incarnation for our times. This promise is eroding…We seek nothing short of a personal conversion of all to create a new Church, fully in tune with the authentic Gospel message, the teachings of our Church, and the American context in which we live.”

Some of the organizations that are joining under the ACC are from among the usual suspects: Call to Action, New Ways Ministry, Catholics for Choice, the Women’s Ordination Conference, Women-Church Convergance, the National Association of American Nuns (Sr. Jeanine Gramnick), the Catholic Diocese of One Spirit, and Dignity.

A local group here in the Twin Cities, the Catholic Coalition for Church Reform (CCCR), was formed last Winter and had formed planning subgroups that are preparing for a "synod" in Detroit next Fall. Until the formation of the ACC, I had not heard of any other group planning a Detroit meeting. So I have to believe that the Fall synod now will be a council and will be held in the Spring in Detroit under the ACC umbrella.

It appears that what we have here is much more than a "failure to communicate." It appears that 2010 will be the time for another Augsburg Confession, a drawing up of the faith, preparatory to the onset of another Thirty Years War.

These malcontents are generally referred to by people who accept Church teachings as dissidents, or sometimes, apostates.

"Dissidents" are those who "disagree with beliefs. "Apostates" are people who have abandoned their religious faith.

What I don't understand is why these impostors aren't called heretics? "Heretics" are people who hold controversial opinions, especially, those who publicly oppose the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

Most of the dissident religious and clerics publicly opposing the Church and its teachings these days don't leave. They stay and attempt to change or destroy the Church from within. Therefore, they are heretics and should be called such.

Now, just where did I put those faggots??? [Faggots: a bundle of twigs, sticks or branches bound together, suitable for starting a fire.]


Michael J. Bayly said...

So, Ray, you're all for putting those whom you deem "heretics" to a horrible and fiery death? That doesn't seem to be a particularly Christ-like thing to do. In fact, it's downright extreme. Do you consider yourself an extremist, Ray? I'll say one thing, much of your post makes CCCR's call for dialogue and reform quite tame in comparison.

Also, CCCR's September 2010 synod, "Claiming Our Place at the Table," will be taking place here in the Twin Cities, not in Detroit. CCCR, after all, is a Twin Cities-based coalition, comprised of individuals and organizations who see themselves very much part of the local church.

If you or any of your readers require additional (and accurate) information, see here.



Vianney33 said...

Yes, there are many of these dissident groups out there and also operating in our parishes through both laypersons and even priests. Despite their claims to want dialogue they simply ignore what the Church says. I have just left a parish that has a strong agenda that mirrors what these dissident groups are calling for. No matter how many times I pointed out errors and opinion that went against the teachings of our Church, nothing changed even though they were clearly in opposition to official teachings. I spent 7 years in "dialogue" with our priest and deacon with nothing to show for it.
However, our discussions were always cordial and respectful. That is not the case with these dissident groups. They set up straw men, twist the words of their opposition and then use harsh language to denigrate them.
That is what Michael has done here. He sets up a straw man based on your last paragraph (horrible and fiery death), while twisting the meaning of your words, and then calls you an extremist.
The problem with these calls for "dialogue" is that they want to change truth that cannot be changed to fit their lifestyles. Wouldn't that be nice if I could pick my most frequent sins or my favorite mortal sin and form a group, take it to the Church and have them change it? Kinda like King Henry. I know that is not going to happen so I repent of my sins and take them to the sacrament of pennance where there is real power and grace. What a wonderful Church we have.
In a brotherly way I ask you to prayerfully consider what our Mother, the Church has to say on her teachings that you object to. In particular, I recommend the sacrament of pennance followed by the sacrament of the Eucharist followed up by spending time in Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. These are what have true power where the Holy Spirit works on you and causes true conversion to holiness which is what Vatican II called for. These played huge roles in my conversion and the openning of my eyes to the Truth and beauty of Holy Mother Church.

eric said...

It's funny, Vianney33, that you should mention straw...Luther...Epistle of Straw...since they don't hold to very much of the Gospel could it be said that they think of it as a Gospel of Straw? That's how it is treated, and Christ, as a straw man of a different color.
It's time that people be forced to make a decision, between right and wrong!

Unknown said...


Frankly, I thought it was a rather witty comment. And a bit tasteless of course. Like some of the postings on your blog.

Rather than "proof texting" me and calling me "extreme" by citing one sentence, I ask that you read the other 3,000+ posts on my blog to find a similar statement.

It's interesting that this is the second time you have accused me of being "un-Christ-like." I've admitted before and I admit it again that I am indeed a great sinner. In fact I went to confession just yesterday. The time before that was two weeks ago.

The real question to be raised is: How committed are the CCCR and the ACC to the doctrines of the Catholic Church? Your complaints that there is no dialogue going on between your fringe interest group and episcopacy.

How can there be fruitful dialogue when your goal is to remove many of the doctrines of the 2,000 year old church to serve your immediate needs?

I stand by my choice of the word "heretic." I chose the other word (which is very commonly used by some of people of your acquaintance) to raise the interest level of my point. It was not meant to be a call to arms.

Being a Catholic means subscribing to the Words of Holy Scripture, to the Traditions of the Church and to the teaching of the Magisterium. You don't get to pick and choose.

Unknown said...

V-33: Great comment. Thanks for being there.

William said...

Ray, these poor, misguided people would have the Most Holy Roman Catholic Church be tomorrow everything that the Episcopal Church is today -- defunct.

Anonymous said...

Ray -

What you forgot to report is that they are holding their meetings at the bastion of heterodoxy, St. Edward's in Bloomington, led by Fr. Michael Tegeder, a close personal hater of Archbishop John Nienstedt and committed dessenter.

See CCCR's Website:
Joint Meeting of CCCR Work/Study Groups

When: 7 p.m., Wednesday, July 15, 2009.

Where: St. Edward's Catholic Church, in Bloomington, located on the corner of Nesbitt and 94th Street South, just West of Highway 100 (Normandale Blvd.)

For more information about this event, click here.

Julie Heil said...


The thing is, Michael, that heretics themselves will be subjected to a horrible, fiery, and everlasting death -regardless of your wishes or Ray's.

Hell is a reality, and heretics, dissenters, and apostates should fear it.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for the post in defense of Holy Mother Church.

As for the meeting scheduled at St. Edwards last week, it appears that it did not take place at the parish. This comes from, I'm told, a reliable local unnamed source. Perhaps this explains why there was no meeting/promo write up on Mr. Bayly's blog as is the norm...

There were communications with the Archdiocese, which I believe helped to rightfully thwart this anti-Catholic meeting at St. Edward.

You can read more here:

and here:

To be clear on the lay Synod:
Mr. Bayly is right on the "synod" in 2010 being held in the Twin Cities. This is generally the same form of organizing as was used in 1976 at the first Call To Action in Detroit.

The plan: Organize and promote locally--choose delegates following the T.C."synod" to represent MN. in Detroit in 2011.

Mr. Bayly failed to mention that the first CCCR organizing meeting featured Janet Hauter (VOTF) co-chair of the American Catholic Council--2011.

I believe that Archbishop Nienstedt did the right thing in declaring the CCCR organization in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Catholic faith; and that laity need to help in the days ahead...

CCCR will continue to meet wherever, and if that wherever is a Catholic Church or facility owned by the Church laity need to take action in defense of their faith and in support of their Bishop..

Here's what I suggested on my site:

1. Don’t participate. Warn your family, friends, and fellow Catholics of the spiritual danger(s) involved by falling for propaganda (error) coming from representatives of either the Catholic Coalition for Church Reform or the American Catholic Council within your diocese. Especially, be on watch for advertisements that promote “Synods of the Baptized” or invitations to meetings found within parish bulletins describing “Catholics coming together to dialogue on difficult Church issues…” This smokescreen tactic was used recently within a bulletin at St. Joan of Arc Catholic Church in Minneapolis.

2. Contact the parish and Priest, (in this case), Fr. Tegeder by e-mail and (respectfully) inform him.

3. Contact Archbishop John C. Nienstedt by e-mail and (respectfully) inform him.

It is my hope that you Ray, like myself, will continue to warn Catholics of the danger.

As for Mr. Bayly, the groups that make up CCCR and the ACC:

I will continue to Pray for all those suffering from a spirit of constantly taking umbrage: with Church, Church doctrine, and defiance of divinely instituted authority–in this case, Archbishop Nienstedt himself.

God Bless You.

james mary evans
(Ex-Coon Rapidian)

Unknown said...


Thanks for your very informative post, but first of all. . .

"Coon Rapidian!!!" I love it. Did you know Adoro is a Coon Rapidian? I've never heard that term before.

Back to business.

I just discovered your blog within the last month or so. You have been doing great reporting. Thank you. It's difficult to dig out some of that information.

I was wondering what happened to the St. Edward's meeting. Abp. Nienstedt had explicitly declared last April that the CCCR group held views contrary to those of the Church.

I'm glad to hear that Fr. Tegeder came to his senses and cancelled the invitation. Of course, he may not have been the original inviter. Parishes like that have lots of independent players placed in decision making positions.

Thanks also for clearing up the synod schedule questions. I've had to read between the lines and for a long time the only reference to Detroit in 2009 was on PCV and CCCR posts. So when the AAC came out with a meeting for 2009, I assumed it was the same meeting.

I really appreciate having you, and anybody else who would want to, follow these dissident movements. I don't believe the chancery has anybody on top of the situation and we can be of great assistance to them.

When it comes down to it, the real aim of the dissident factions is to destroy the Church.

It's a tragedy, but for the safety of the Church it would be better that they leave and form there own sects. Better that than to undermine the faith and salvation of millions from within the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Roman Catholic Church.

Larry Denninger said...

"Maybe the Rainbow Sash folks will be in Detroit next year, hope, hope, hope."

Hey, stop wishing even more bad things to happen to Detroit!

Just kidding!

I'm adding you to my Catablogue, Ray. I'll be updating on the ACC as things develop at my blog as well. I'll be launching a campaign to "out" the Descent of Dissent here in the Archdiocese.

Unknown said...


Thanks you. I checked out your blogs. "Acts of the Apostasy!!!" What a great (and appropriate) name! I'll keep watching you too. It's hard to keep track of these things. I'll attempt to keep you advised of things as I discover them.

I checked your other Dads blog too. Just skimmed it. But I agree with you on the recent "matrimonial dance" video. I could only watch half of it. I wanted to start an Over-Under wager on how long that marriage would last. I'd be betting on the "under" side. But I'm not much of a gambler and I don't know how those bets work.

Thanks for stopping by. And God bless Detroit. It can use lots of divine assistance.